Titanium Satellite C2PLL: Where's The Beef?

I took the C2 PLL apart and do not see any valid reason for the heatsink. You are applauded if you can find any real decrease in board temperature with this heatsink installed in this manner.

The heatsink is installed around 12 mm from the lnb board. So you have a dead airspace and this airspace acts like an insulator between the board and the heatsink. The heatsink also has a piece of material attached to it that would further insulate it from cooling the board.

One side of the lnb board appears to be almost solid copper, and it is firmly attached to the bottom of the lnb cavity using 7 screws. The lnb board is coupled to the cavity, and the heat from the bottom of the board will radiate into the lnb feedhorn or into the lnb wave guide.

Your Geosat C2 lnb version seems to be a better choice because it is lighter weight when compared to the Titanium C2 lnb and it is totally sealed. The rubber seal on the Titanium lnb which helps insulate the heatsink from the rest of the lnb body will eventually fail and allow water or moisture to be in contact with the lnb board. The Geosat C2 has a sealed housing and I would expect it to last longer than a lnb housing sealed with rubber.

Both of these C2 lnbs are good. They function and seem to have sufficient isolation between the two ports so you can operate multiple receivers at the same time without having receiver to receiver interference. The same cannot be said for all of the dual lnbs I have tested.

Titanium C2 Pictures:

This picture shows the bottom of the lnb cavity
View attachment 12454
The copper side of the lnb board is firmly attached to the bottom of this cavity which allows for the transfer of heat from the board to the lnb feedhorn or waveguide



This picture shows the back or bottom side of the lnb board.
View attachment 12452
This side is Firmly attached to the bottom of the lnb cavity.
The small amount of heat generated by this board can be transferred to the feedhorn or waveguide area of the lnb.



This picture shows the top or front side of the lnb board
View attachment 12453
Looks like there are not many parts installed here that produce a lot of heat. There is also a dead air space of about 12 mm between the board and the giant heatsink.



This picture shows the back of the C2 heatsink
View attachment 12455
I have no idea as to why a pad would be attached to the back of a heatsink. It makes no sense at all to me.



here is a better view of the heatsink pad.
View attachment 12456
 
The Titanium C2 lnb is described in advertising as having a heavy aluminum casting. The empty Titanium C2 casting weighs in at 6 ounces. In a comparison, the empty WSI DMX casting weighs in at 8 ounces. Granted, 2 ounces is not a whole lot, but it is a considerable percentage of 6 ounces.

Empty Titanium casting
View attachment 12458


Empty WSI DMX 242 casting
View attachment 12459
 
Thanks for the C2-PLL tear down. Good photos and noticing the typical thermal bonding to the mass. The board does get quite hot if it is not attached to the casting. In past design projects for earlier KU products, I measured a PLL PCB laying on the bench at 140F (in average 72 degree ambient room temperature).

The pad is recommended for RF control in the cavity by the RDA design specs and is found in most if not all LNBFs. We did not test without the pad inserted in the cavity as the frequency response and gain flatness was as spec'd and without harmonics.

Highly doubtful that a grooved, seated and fastened rubber seal betwen two flat plates will fail. This type of rubber seal is utilized by most LNB PCB cavity fastener seating for the past 30+ years. I have done residential and commercial install / tech calls since the early 80's and cant recall a failed rubber ring on a LNB PCB cavity. But if you are right, the C1-PLL has a lifetime warranty, moisture or water intrusion via the factory seal would be a covered event.

The reference to our LNBFs having a heavy casting is bin comparisson to the typical housing on an off-the-shelf LNBF. I really like the fact that the C1/C2-PLL feedhorn does not deform as easily when securing to a scalar as on many LNBF designs. I also selected this particular housing so the skew makings could be placed in alignment to the vertical probe and we could stamp +/-45 degrees instead of the typical +/-30 and often incorrectly referenced to the horizontal probe.

Thank you for the compliment! Always have been attentive to the port isolation. This comes from me working in the real world and not locked away in a lab. It used to be such a frustration at multi-receiver installs when the connection of two or more STBs to a dual output LNBF and they would interfere with each other and drop transponders.

Thanks again for your attention to this project! Would you like a C1-PLL or C1-PLL lite to test and compare?
 
I think the build quality of the titanium C2 lnb board is better than the WSI 242.

The build date of the WSI 242 board is 4-23-2008, and this lnb was working, but the separation of the two lnb ports was not good and caused interference when multiple receivers were connected to it. I have found this problem in several brands of dual c band lnbs.

The Titanium lnb board appears to be copper, while the WSI board is silver or an alloy with a silver color. More care seems to have been given when installing the parts on the Titanium board. I see some extra solder on the WSI board which I do not like.

It took a good bit of time to test these products, and I am not in a position to do any more lnb tests right now. Maybe I will do some more at some point in the future, but I think overall, the best way to improve the signal is not by changing a healthy lnb, but by making the dish or the reflector bigger.

I have also thought about swapping the cases on some lnb boards and send them out to some people to test. I think if you put a dro board inside a pll lnb case, or a pll board inside a dro case and ask people to test them, you would see some astonishing results!

Below are some pictures that compare the dro and C2 boards. i think the overall build quality of the pll lnb is better than this particular dro lnb.

View attachment 12504

View attachment 12505

View attachment 12506

View attachment 12507
 
Lnbs that are similar to the Titanium C2 are available direct from China. It will be interesting to see if the performance of these lnbs is equal or similar. It will also be interesting to see if the internal design is the same.

PLL C Band LNBF.webp

(Purchase date = last night.
Shipping date = this morning.)
 
well guys the shiny side of aluminum reflect the heat away from the source so if it is facing to the source it does not help the only avantage are the fins and they are aluminum and they are made of it because it is less expensive and the oxide makes them last longer....all given I don't rea....ly know if in this case are a + or minus, sorry just showin-off my knowlege of metallurgy...not of spelling. have a nice week-end----easly confused lilla
 
Advertisements show the aluminum heat sink up.
No mounting instructions are given in this advertisement that I see stating the correct way to mount this lnb.


C1 PLL Advertisement.webp
 
Thank you for bringing this AliExpress listing to my attention. Anhui Bowei is a production factory involved with our product. We have an agreement that they will not distribute our design, but actions speak louder than agreements.

I am quite sure that you have ordered a product with similar if not identical hardware and performance to our Titanium Satellite branded product. Yes, you may buy directly from a factory in China and save $7, but you do not receive the Titanium Satellite lifetime warranty, telephone / email support, or our free 2-3 day US/VI/PR shipping. I would be happy to provide you with a free sample of the Titanium Model to provide a comparison.

Now that you know about the company and the product origin, it basically comes down to a personal decision. Support a legitimate company's investment in our industry for the research and development to bring these PLL LNBFs into production or to buy a product that was developed under contract and distributed without our permission. China is the wild, wild west of honoring intellectual properties and respecting agreements. While we make every effort to only work with companies that we can trust, some products slip out the back door.

The posted Ebay listing is from a reseller. They have been provided with the link for the installation instructions and are asked to provide to their customers.

I invite you to give me a call anytime, tool-free at 855-200-4373. You are extremely knowledgeable about satellite technology and interested in the PLL LNBFs and I would value talking with you. I feel that there is something that I am not understanding about your attitude to the development of these products. You appear to have invested considerable time and energy into the subject and chip at it from every angle. I honestly don't get it!

Thanks for your time and information! Have a great weekend!
 
I always have had mixed results from buying directly from the manufacturer or from China. The cost of the comparable C2 lnb direct from China was about $31.00 with shipping included. It took almost two weeks for the product to arrive. For twenty dollars less, I got a comparable product that took two weeks to ship. This lnb did not include any nuts or bolts, or anything to convert the lnb to circular satellites.

For about 40% less with shipping included, I got a comparable or equal product to the Titanium/Geosat C2 but in a very plain or basic form. The pll lnb from AliExpress performs the same or very similar to the other C2 lnbs I have tested.

Here are a few pictures of the AliExpress pll c band lnb:

View attachment 12570

View attachment 12571

View attachment 12572

View attachment 12573
 
I have spent some time using the C PLL lnb and find that it works about the same as the C2 PLL. More insulation has been added to the back of the heatsink in the C PLL lnb. How is an insulated heatsink supposed to do anything besides look impressive on the outside?
The circuit board appears to be identical in both lnbs.

View attachment 12646 View attachment 12647

I find to date:
Inverto does not offer any PLL lnb
Invacom does not offer any PLL lnb
Dishnet does not use pll lnbs, even the new model is a dro.
Direct TV does not use pll lnbs

A commercial pll circuit board will not look anything like the circuit boards shown in this thread. The commercial pll lnb circuit board will have more parts on it.

I think the Titanium C2 PLL LNB is a good lnb overall, and wold last a long time under normal use, but I feel the price is a bit high. On the other hand, you have a Titanium customer support line which China does not offer.

Titanium may be ale to cut cost by offering the C2 PLL LNB in a plain box or by offering the lnb as a single piece in a plain box without any additional hardware. Many people will already have the scaler ring and other hardware, so nothing would be needed except the lnb. The C band dielectric is only needed for the East Coast in the U.S. If you want to compete directly with China, then do as China does. EB
 
Thanks for the comparison.

The ole adage.... you get what you pay for. For newbies, the customer support line will most likely be a beneficial enticement to purchase. Thus, the higher selling price of said item along with other incurred product costs is warranted. Assuming the vendor is selling a product that matches the advertised specs. Plus newbies not having to deal with overseas vendors and hassles.

For die hard testers, going over seas is an experience and many times an enjoyment to see what is different, comparable, hype, lower cost and/or new to what is being offered states side.
 
I doubt the specs are accurate on any fta lnb or fta receiver because these so called specs are not independently verified. The specs are whatever the China manufacturer wants them to be OR what you want them to be. They will print anything you ask them to!
 
Yup.... just like the Kim Kardashian specs always being advertised. But, once you see her in reality, you wonder what all the hype was about.
 
That heatsink sure does look sharp. How about we put it to the test in the Desert. Say somewhere near Vegas. Or the Mojave. Aluminum dishes are painted beige for a reason. If someone with access to a conventional lnb and this one can set them up in direct sunlight and then test the temperature with a laser thermometer I am dying to know what the difference is. We may have to wait a few months until the ideal conditions exist but I can't wait.

I made a solar cooker in 3rd grade for a class project. We used a foil lined umbrella and a tin pan in the center. Ours worked the best LOL.
 
el bandido said:
I have spent some time using the C PLL lnb and find that it works about the same as the C2 PLL. More insulation has been added to the back of the heatsink in the C PLL lnb. How is an insulated heatsink supposed to do anything besides look impressive on the outside?
The circuit board appears to be identical in both lnbs.

View attachment 12646 View attachment 12647

I find to date:
Inverto does not offer any PLL lnb
Invacom does not offer any PLL lnb
Dishnet does not use pll lnbs, even the new model is a dro.
Direct TV does not use pll lnbs

A commercial pll circuit board will not look anything like the circuit boards shown in this thread. The commercial pll lnb circuit board will have more parts on it.

I think the Titanium C2 PLL LNB is a good lnb overall, and wold last a long time under normal use, but I feel the price is a bit high. On the other hand, you have a Titanium customer support line which China does not offer.

Titanium may be ale to cut cost by offering the C2 PLL LNB in a plain box or by offering the lnb as a single piece in a plain box without any additional hardware. Many people will already have the scaler ring and other hardware, so nothing would be needed except the lnb. The C band dielectric is only needed for the East Coast in the U.S. If you want to compete directly with China, then do as China does. EB
Click to expand...
I would agree, the Titanium PLL LNBF has been a good half decent LNB for the time I used and experimented with it. The only one small negative I had that somehow insults Brian personally to the core, is that it's performance was half decent for me; I figured I could do better with something else. Last I checked, I thought had that right to do so, it's called "Experimentation" or "Research". Brian's products do not perform badly enough to warrant a return of everything I bought from him; despite his guilt trips in a seperate insulting unwelcome email that maybe I should. I intend to keep the LNBF'S in case I might need a backup or spare to get me by temporarily. I am currently experimenting with GeoSatPro LNBF'S on my C-Band dish for the past few months, and I posted a pic of it here on this forum. But since King Brian decided to take MY same pic and just post it on Sat Guys WITHOUT MY PERMISSION, I am now going to make some major commercial upgrades to my C-Band Dish very soon and just keep it to myself; making that stolen pic very much out of date. Brian, when you continually insult your customers, or potential customers intelligence you will make enemies in business very quickly indeed! For the record Brian, I set up my entire satellite system pretty much all by myself, I did not ask 'you' "hundreds of questions", and you did not help me with ALL of my projects, you have me confused with your other pal Dan Rose. :-) I only asked about one thing or subject, that got blown all out of proportion from everyone else being the sole "Expert". What exactly makes you the ONLY ONE correct Expert on anything?? Why can't anyone else ever have an input or solution or idea to something? Why MUST you always reply to everything to just put someone down and make them feel bad?? What exactly always makes you right, Brian? You just keep barking at it from every angle, I just don't get your screwed up Pride!! :-/ Do I have to remind you AGAIN of the years of experience I've had with small satellite dishes since 2001? I was never a clueless newbie coming into this hobby, give people the benefit of the doubt and credit, if your Pride will ever allow. You are turning people away from this hobby and killing it from the inside out as you upset and frustrate people.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G890A using Tapatalk
 
I would like Not to turn this thread into attack against the distributor or the developer because doing that usually ends bad for all involved as can be seen here:
http://www.tvrosat.com/phpBB-3.0/ph...sid=e4a1618e82a58176c797bcec8ee2dadb&start=20

As a rule, anything posted on the internet can and will be reused by other people. This includes pictures. I have had many things that I have posted to be reused without my permission. You probably need to mark things are do something else to make them not useful if you do not want things to be reused.

I do not really know what all has gone on between you and Brian, but you are welcome to start a thread about it and explain everything in great detail if you desire. Yourself nor anybody else will not be censored as long as things are kept fairly reasonable. Overall, I am not happy about most things that have been posted about the c2 pll lnb, or any other cheap pll lnb because they simply do not perform anything like a correctly designed pll lnb. A correctly designed pll lnb will require more filters and circuits, which increases the cost of the product by a considerable margin. You will not just change the DRO to PLL and get much improved performance.

To give Brian his due, you have an address and a phone number where he may be contacted. This says a lot when compared to other sellers or distributors who seem to live in a PO Box and do not make enough money to own a telephone. I disagree with a lot of things in this thread, but it is rare to find someone that can participate in negative discussions about their product in a civil manner.
 
I apologize if anyone feels that I insult or attack anyone. I certainly love the industry, hobby and having conversations about the technology and entertainment that we are fortunate to enjoy. We learn and grow as hobbyists with experimentation and from communicating our successes and failures with each other. With 35+ years involvement in the satellite industry I have gained some knowledge, but am far from being an expert, let alone "the expert".

Tron 2.0, Where are your personal attacks coming from? I don't recall ever having any negative interactions with you before these recent posts. I never posted your photo on SatGuys, but I did reply to your thread on a different site to assist answering your LNBF question. Once again, I invite you to share any communications that we have ever had. This BS really needs to stop...

I agree with El Bandido's suggestion and would be happy to address in an open forum any issues that you might have with me.

Happy New Year everyone!
 
Unfortunately, I won't have time to start any new threads any time soon for anything. So I'm having to just stay off the forums, especially since Bian is on every single one of them anyway. I will just continue to journey down my own path myself.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G890A using Tapatalk
 
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