Titanium Satellite C2PLL: Where's The Beef?

[el bandido]

I took the C2 PLL apart and do not see any valid reason for the heatsink. You are applauded if you can find any real decrease in board temperature with this heatsink installed in this manner.

The heatsink is installed around 12 mm from the lnb board. So you have a dead airspace and this airspace acts like an insulator between the board and the heatsink. The heatsink also has a piece of material attached to it that would further insulate it from cooling the board.

One side of the lnb board appears to be almost solid copper, and it is firmly attached to the bottom of the lnb cavity using 7 screws. The lnb board is coupled to the cavity, and the heat from the bottom of the board will radiate into the lnb feedhorn or into the lnb wave guide.

Your Geosat C2 lnb version seems to be a better choice because it is lighter weight when compared to the Titanium C2 lnb and it is totally sealed. The rubber seal on the Titanium lnb which helps insulate the heatsink from the rest of the lnb body will eventually fail and allow water or moisture to be in contact with the lnb board. The Geosat C2 has a sealed housing and I would expect it to last longer than a lnb housing sealed with rubber.

Both of these C2 lnbs are good. They function and seem to have sufficient isolation between the two ports so you can operate multiple receivers at the same time without having receiver to receiver interference. The same cannot be said for all of the dual lnbs I have tested.

Titanium C2 Pictures:

This picture shows the bottom of the lnb cavity
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The copper side of the lnb board is firmly attached to the bottom of this cavity which allows for the transfer of heat from the board to the lnb feedhorn or waveguide



This picture shows the back or bottom side of the lnb board.
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This side is Firmly attached to the bottom of the lnb cavity.
The small amount of heat generated by this board can be transferred to the feedhorn or waveguide area of the lnb.



This picture shows the top or front side of the lnb board
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Looks like there are not many parts installed here that produce a lot of heat. There is also a dead air space of about 12 mm between the board and the giant heatsink.



This picture shows the back of the C2 heatsink
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I have no idea as to why a pad would be attached to the back of a heatsink. It makes no sense at all to me.



here is a better view of the heatsink pad.
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[el bandido]

The Titanium C2 lnb is described in advertising as having a heavy aluminum casting. The empty Titanium C2 casting weighs in at 6 ounces. In a comparison, the empty WSI DMX casting weighs in at 8 ounces. Granted, 2 ounces is not a whole lot, but it is a considerable percentage of 6 ounces.

Empty Titanium casting
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Empty WSI DMX 242 casting
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[Titanium]

Thanks for the C2-PLL tear down. Good photos and noticing the typical thermal bonding to the mass. The board does get quite hot if it is not attached to the casting. In past design projects for earlier KU products, I measured a PLL PCB laying on the bench at 140F (in average 72 degree ambient room temperature).

The pad is recommended for RF control in the cavity by the RDA design specs and is found in most if not all LNBFs. We did not test without the pad inserted in the cavity as the frequency response and gain flatness was as spec'd and without harmonics.

Highly doubtful that a grooved, seated and fastened rubber seal betwen two flat plates will fail. This type of rubber seal is utilized by most LNB PCB cavity fastener seating for the past 30+ years. I have done residential and commercial install / tech calls since the early 80's and cant recall a failed rubber ring on a LNB PCB cavity. But if you are right, the C1-PLL has a lifetime warranty, moisture or water intrusion via the factory seal would be a covered event.

The reference to our LNBFs having a heavy casting is bin comparisson to the typical housing on an off-the-shelf LNBF. I really like the fact that the C1/C2-PLL feedhorn does not deform as easily when securing to a scalar as on many LNBF designs. I also selected this particular housing so the skew makings could be placed in alignment to the vertical probe and we could stamp +/-45 degrees instead of the typical +/-30 and often incorrectly referenced to the horizontal probe.

Thank you for the compliment! Always have been attentive to the port isolation. This comes from me working in the real world and not locked away in a lab. It used to be such a frustration at multi-receiver installs when the connection of two or more STBs to a dual output LNBF and they would interfere with each other and drop transponders.

Thanks again for your attention to this project! Would you like a C1-PLL or C1-PLL lite to test and compare?

[el bandido]

I think the build quality of the titanium C2 lnb board is better than the WSI 242.

The build date of the WSI 242 board is 4-23-2008, and this lnb was working, but the separation of the two lnb ports was not good and caused interference when multiple receivers were connected to it. I have found this problem in several brands of dual c band lnbs.

The Titanium lnb board appears to be copper, while the WSI board is silver or an alloy with a silver color. More care seems to have been given when installing the parts on the Titanium board. I see some extra solder on the WSI board which I do not like.

It took a good bit of time to test these products, and I am not in a position to do any more lnb tests right now. Maybe I will do some more at some point in the future, but I think overall, the best way to improve the signal is not by changing a healthy lnb, but by making the dish or the reflector bigger.

I have also thought about swapping the cases on some lnb boards and send them out to some people to test. I think if you put a dro board inside a pll lnb case, or a pll board inside a dro case and ask people to test them, you would see some astonishing results!

Below are some pictures that compare the dro and C2 boards. i think the overall build quality of the pll lnb is better than this particular dro lnb.

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[el bandido]

Lnbs that are similar to the Titanium C2 are available direct from China. It will be interesting to see if the performance of these lnbs is equal or similar. It will also be interesting to see if the internal design is the same.

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(Purchase date = last night.
Shipping date = this morning.)

[lilla]

well guys the shiny side of aluminum reflect the heat away from the source so if it is facing to the source it does not help the only avantage are the fins and they are aluminum and they are made of it because it is less expensive and the oxide makes them last longer....all given I don't rea....ly know if in this case are a + or minus, sorry just showin-off my knowlege of metallurgy...not of spelling. have a nice week-end----easly confused lilla

[el bandido]

Advertisements show the aluminum heat sink up.
No mounting instructions are given in this advertisement that I see stating the correct way to mount this lnb.


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[Titanium]

Thank you for bringing this AliExpress listing to my attention. Anhui Bowei is a production factory involved with our product. We have an agreement that they will not distribute our design, but actions speak louder than agreements.

I am quite sure that you have ordered a product with similar if not identical hardware and performance to our Titanium Satellite branded product. Yes, you may buy directly from a factory in China and save $7, but you do not receive the Titanium Satellite lifetime warranty, telephone / email support, or our free 2-3 day US/VI/PR shipping. I would be happy to provide you with a free sample of the Titanium Model to provide a comparison.

Now that you know about the company and the product origin, it basically comes down to a personal decision. Support a legitimate company's investment in our industry for the research and development to bring these PLL LNBFs into production or to buy a product that was developed under contract and distributed without our permission. China is the wild, wild west of honoring intellectual properties and respecting agreements. While we make every effort to only work with companies that we can trust, some products slip out the back door.

The posted Ebay listing is from a reseller. They have been provided with the link for the installation instructions and are asked to provide to their customers.

I invite you to give me a call anytime, tool-free at 855-200-4373. You are extremely knowledgeable about satellite technology and interested in the PLL LNBFs and I would value talking with you. I feel that there is something that I am not understanding about your attitude to the development of these products. You appear to have invested considerable time and energy into the subject and chip at it from every angle. I honestly don't get it!

Thanks for your time and information! Have a great weekend!

[el bandido]

I always have had mixed results from buying directly from the manufacturer or from China. The cost of the comparable C2 lnb direct from China was about $31.00 with shipping included. It took almost two weeks for the product to arrive. For twenty dollars less, I got a comparable product that took two weeks to ship. This lnb did not include any nuts or bolts, or anything to convert the lnb to circular satellites.

For about 40% less with shipping included, I got a comparable or equal product to the Titanium/Geosat C2 but in a very plain or basic form. The pll lnb from AliExpress performs the same or very similar to the other C2 lnbs I have tested.

Here are a few pictures of the AliExpress pll c band lnb:

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[el bandido]

I have spent some time using the C PLL lnb and find that it works about the same as the C2 PLL. More insulation has been added to the back of the heatsink in the C PLL lnb. How is an insulated heatsink supposed to do anything besides look impressive on the outside?
The circuit board appears to be identical in both lnbs.

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I find to date:
Inverto does not offer any PLL lnb
Invacom does not offer any PLL lnb
Dishnet does not use pll lnbs, even the new model is a dro.
Direct TV does not use pll lnbs

A commercial pll circuit board will not look anything like the circuit boards shown in this thread. The commercial pll lnb circuit board will have more parts on it.

I think the Titanium C2 PLL LNB is a good lnb overall, and wold last a long time under normal use, but I feel the price is a bit high. On the other hand, you have a Titanium customer support line which China does not offer.

Titanium may be ale to cut cost by offering the C2 PLL LNB in a plain box or by offering the lnb as a single piece in a plain box without any additional hardware. Many people will already have the scaler ring and other hardware, so nothing would be needed except the lnb. The C band dielectric is only needed for the East Coast in the U.S. If you want to compete directly with China, then do as China does. EB